What I mean by sexism

[Duck]

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The problem, and part of the root of a lot of unintentional sexism, is that not everyone agrees on what a gender role fully is or what it encompasses. To what degree it affects one's identity, clothing and behavior -- as well as sexual implications.

Very true. For some, the idea of being a woman is glitter and ponies and barbies, and pink. For some, it's a woman secure in themselves and not afraid of what they are. For some it's the nuturing maternal figure. To some, it's a VERY high degree, to some it's a very minor.

[Amber]

Sexism isn't just unique to one gender or the other. Men and woman both have ideas about what roles they themselves should play and what roles the opposite sex should play.

What is being pointed out is the stereotypical view of gender and how people react to them. Most people grew up knowing that boys play with action figures such as G.I. Joe and Transformers and girls play with barbie and dolls. However if ya think about it, there is really no difference between a barbie and G.I. Joe than how kids play with them. Alot of stuff we do as adults are done the same way, females treat a problem or something differently than man and vice versa. We are both right in our approach but somethings men are better at because of their way of thinking and woman are better at others because of their way of thinking.

If a person wants to play a ponies and barbie girl or a macho beer and sports guy, than that is their rights as a person. However though careful dialog a person can expand their character beyond the typical stereotype to be a unique individual. If they want to. If you are offended by such than you don't have to interact with them.

[Mitera Nikkou]

I believe that the only thing inherent in either sex is their reproductive roles. Not even how the two sexes copulate, in regard to what the reason to engage in sex may be (or with which sex), is consistent. A lot of the world that we live in is just a fantasy: we use our imagination to add something that doesn't come naturally into our lives and we tend to pass down these notions through generations. To me sexism is just a lack of imagination for expressing the qualities of the subject of interest, in regard to the sexes. People tend to repeat what they like until they ever grow tired of it, and cultural ideas usually hang around longer than social trends unless said social trend becomes a part of culture. So I don't mind sexism all that much since most people practice it (even many of those who think they don't) and there's pretty much nothing to be done about it. I'd be more worried about misogyny since it's more purposeful in its attack and degradation of the cultural and societal values of women.

That's about all that you can expect from a crazy like me. ;/

[Musashi]

Well, yeah, there's nothing wrong with a person liking/doing things that are a stereotype. But I think it becomes a bad thing when it's assumed that's ALL there is, that every man or woman only likes certain things and only think in certain ways and there's never any variation, or if there is variation then it means the person is a weirdo who isn't doing what they're "supposed" to be doing.

[Terriformer]

I wouldn't waste one moment worrying about sexism with a caption image. Most of the reason for the transformation is to take on the usual behavioral characteristics of the opposite gender. Aside from these, you'd we be left with just a change in genitals and secondary characteristics. In some cases I suppose that's enough, but it wouldn't allow for a very wide realm of creativity. Also, the images themselves often exalt what is delightful to behold or experience in femininity (feminine clothing, bodily poses, gestures) as well as in some cases the equivalent with masculinity.

This is a case where it's appropriate to say "lighten up".

[Ninian]

I wouldn't waste one moment worrying about sexism with a caption image. Most of the reason for the transformation is to take on the usual behavioral characteristics of the opposite gender. Aside from these, you'd we be left with just a change in genitals and secondary characteristics. In some cases I suppose that's enough, but it wouldn't allow for a very wide realm of creativity. Also, the images themselves often exalt what is delightful to behold or experience in femininity (feminine clothing, bodily poses, gestures) as well as in some cases the equivalent with masculinity.

This is a case where it's appropriate to say "lighten up".

This is also a case where it's appropriate to say "actually read the post, noob". You'd have noticed I said nothing in attack of feminine clothing or gestures, just attacking the stereotyping of female behavior in captions -- and even then offering leeway.

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... It also doesn't that mean that one can't write a character with stereotypical interests, or even have those interests overtake someone as part of their transformation, but merely recognize that individuals of that sex don't necessarily have those traits inherently.

EDIT: Also, it's not a "waste" to worry about coming off as sexist when there are members of the opposite sex present and would appreciate the extra mile to not marginalize them.

[Terriformer]

I've seen a good percentage of the captions posted here over the past four years, which is how long I've been visiting the site. I can honestly say that I haven't seen much that should be taken as offensive, especially given that the captions are basically meant to be lighthearted.

Putting the shoe on the other foot, if a female character gets turned into a male and spends his time ogling girls, watching sports and playing video games, then you'd have to say "If the shoe fits..." Not all guys are like that, of course, but it's within reason to have a character become like that. If they had had him going out and getting into fights, then that's offensive, because you're implying that men in general display this worst type of male behavior.

You reacted angrily, friend. My exasperation is with feminism itself, which despite some accomplishments has had a long history of degrading both women and men.

[Ninian]

It's not offensive so much as it's a sign of an ignorant (that is, unaware) writer. I aim to improve quality as much as possible, and one of those standards is whether a portrayal is a sloppy sexist stereotype without basis for it. It's not so much as controlling what's offensive as it is just whistleblowing on something that can be improved on and made more appealing or polish on the writing. That's never a bad thing, and even I admitted gender roles are subjective and the whole point is to play with them

Anyways, I responded in an annoyed tone because it seemed like you didn't even bother to read what I was saying before responding to what you thought I was saying. People have two ears and one mouth for a reason.

Feminism as an idealogy is still important in this day and age (and I can go to the Soap Box forum and spam articles at a rate Coruscate would gape at if you need proof) and I'm proud to call myself a feminist, regardless of how other feminists behave or what people's perceptions of feminist stereotypes may be.

[Terriformer]

What's troubling is when feminism has a stifling, oppressive effect on society, which was the case twenty or so years ago. It got to the point where women questioned themselves and were apologetic for wanting to do and be what women traditionally wanted to do and be. Young women today seem to have overcome that - they can be traditional or non-traditional without guilt or criticism either way. Hooray indeed for that.

When I first discovered anime - which was only a few years ago -- I couldn't help but think "This is incredibly sexist." The domestic skills of a woman seem all-important, girls who can't cook are the butt of jokes, etc. and etc. Well, Gloria Steinem hasn't made it to Japan. So I don't recommend anime to women between the ages of 30 and 70.

But anime celebrates beauty and harmony, celebrates all that's pleasant in life, doesn't display the physical, mental and emotional cruelty that runs through Western entertainments, features compassion and kindness. So you take that traditional sexism as part of the whole picture. People are here at this forum because they like anime, whatever their reasons. When I first read Akemi's opening post I did so attentively, but I couldn't help but think that one should not make much of sexism when you're working with anime -- it is anime after all.


EDIT: And may I add that I've noticed how often a disagreement is taken as a personal offense. That's one way of responding to what you "think somebody said without actually paying attention to it."

[Musashi]

It got to the point where women questioned themselves and were apologetic for wanting to do and be what women traditionally wanted to do and be. Young women today seem to have overcome that - they can be traditional or non-traditional without guilt or criticism either way. Hooray indeed for that.

But anime celebrates beauty and harmony, celebrates all that's pleasant in life, doesn't display the physical, mental and emotional cruelty that runs through Western entertainments, features compassion and kindness. So you take that traditional sexism as part of the whole picture. People are here at this forum because they like anime, whatever their reasons. When I first read Akemi's opening post I did so attentively, but I couldn't help but think that one should not make much of sexism when you're working with anime -- it is anime after all.

But what about violent anime, and scary anime, and psycho "WTF? o__O" anime? I think it covers a pretty wide spectrum, and I've seen anime that manages to not be sexist.

Anyway, I don't think anyone here is seriously freaking out over the sexism. I see sexist works, and yeah I might feel annoyed, but I click it off and move on. No one's being told they can't do their captions/stories that way.
Mainly I worry about whether or not the poster themselves knows that what they're writing is sexist. Some people do it on purpose. But apparently some people do it on accident, due to a lack of knowledge, and may perhaps like to know so they can change things. And I guess others are just stubborn... I've encountered people who didn't want to listen at all when I explained that being a girl actually ISN'T perfect. But hey, what do I know about being female? I've only been one, what... my entire life? >_>;;

As for feminism, I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning. There was questioning about whether women really DID want to be and do what was traditionally expected of them, and for many that answer was no. Though I agree that women who DO want to, say, be stay-at-home mothers, should not have to feel bad or apologetic about it. There's nothing wrong with it. Having the /choice/ is what matters.

That's what feminism is to me. Equality, freedom of choice, that sort of thing.
So yeah, there's other kinds of feminism I really dooon't like, like.. Feminazi-ism. *Twitches* Man, I won't even go into it. It pisses me off too much. -_-;

[Ninian]

What's troubling is when feminism has a stifling, oppressive effect on society, which was the case twenty or so years ago. It got to the point where women questioned themselves and were apologetic for wanting to do and be what women traditionally wanted to do and be. Young women today seem to have overcome that - they can be traditional or non-traditional without guilt or criticism either way. Hooray indeed for that.

Which wave of feminism are you referring to? Each one had different effects, positive and negative.

When I first discovered anime - which was only a few years ago -- I couldn't help but think "This is incredibly sexist." The domestic skills of a woman seem all-important, girls who can't cook are the butt of jokes, etc. and etc. Well, Gloria Steinem hasn't made it to Japan. So I don't recommend anime to women between the ages of 30 and 70.

Actually, one of the earliest members America's proper feminist movement had a Japanese mentor.

But anime celebrates beauty and harmony, celebrates all that's pleasant in life, doesn't display the physical, mental and emotional cruelty that runs through Western entertainments, features compassion and kindness. So you take that traditional sexism as part of the whole picture. People are here at this forum because they like anime, whatever their reasons. When I first read Akemi's opening post I did so attentively, but I couldn't help but think that one should not make much of sexism when you're working with anime -- it is anime after all.

Just because anime does all that doesn't mean it's above criticism or social commentary, nor are the people who write captions or other things based on it.

EDIT: And may I add that I've noticed how often a disagreement is taken as a personal offense. That's one way of responding to what you "think somebody said without actually paying attention to it."

You quoted my original post and then refuted something I never said or even implied.

[Rowan]

Hatred is never a positive thing. Anger is an important feeling and Outrage is necessary and right sometimes. But Hatred only breeds more negativity. Eventually a balance of understanding and respect must be created and Hatred on any side only slows that down and makes it harder to achieve the sort of Peace that should exist amongst all people.

[Ninian]

Also I like what Musashi said. I'm not sure what I could add to it, but I just wanted to say rock on. Except... eww... the bishi catboy is a girl?! Ack! Cooties! Run! O_O; (j/k, I know you were ^^; )

Also, yeah, there is anime out there that celebrates the identity of women without debasing them (though a lot of it does). Granted it skews "towards" sexism moreso than a lot of American entertainment dares, but I like that because one of the negative effects of modern feminism is that a lot of media is hesitant to celebrate gender roles or identity. I think Terriformer believes that comes with the territory, if you explore gender identity, you need to allow some sexism. And I think what Terriformer doesn't like is controlling feminists who attempt to attack or punish people for doing so.

Except thing is, I'm not one of those and I'd like to not be grouped in with them or responded to as if I was one, just because I rate things based on sexism or make social commentary based on it. It's not the same thing. And my post was quoted and refuted on things I never said. That's why I'm annoyed.

[Mistress Guendolen]

This is exactly how I feel on the subject! Freedom to choose, no matter what that choice is. If someone wants to be a stay at home wife and mother, fine, so long as she's happy. The point is options. The femnazis give everyone else a bad name. Individuals who can be quite scary indeed....

That's what feminism is to me. Equality, freedom of choice, that sort of thing.
So yeah, there's other kinds of feminism I really dooon't like, like.. Feminazi-ism. *Twitches* Man, I won't even go into it. It pisses me off too much. -_-;