A Contentious TG Psychological Theory

[Loremistress Eirien]

So I stumbled across a curious article in the New York Times. The argument he made was that many TG people are actually in it for imagined sexual experiences rather than a belief that they were 'born in the wrong body.' Your opinions?

[Mitera Nikkou]

I wouldn't throw the possibility out because it does seem rather possible to me. In fact, I have been thinking of making a topic discussing how many are really TG at all. Well, that, and also how many seem so stereotypical in how they represent females. I can only imagine how feminists would react. I mean, I would think that someone would like to have equal or more power among their counterparts, which is the whole reason for why we have racism, sexism, prejudice, and a bunch of other things. But most males-wanting-to-be-females seem to put themselves in some inferior/degrading/submissive/victimized role.

So, yeah, from my own personal experience, I've seen most TG expressed in some sexual way, with or without fetishes. Humans are just sexual like that, I guess. Of course, much of it could just be a byproduct of desiring to be a female, in which case they fantasize about certain things, especially those that are common (stereotypes), that makes them feel like they're getting into the spirit of being female/feminine. Which is about as close as anyone can get right now since modern science and technology can only change so much, physically.

But what do I know, right? I'm the one who thinks that we don't have free will, after all. XD

[Rowan]

I think the entire issue is too complicated to boil it down at all.

[Cutey Kerina]

Definitely what I was thinking, Rowan. ^^

I can't speak for transgendered people (I'm a female who is just so messed up in a myriad of other psychosexual ways that I love zapping genders and making soft and other things rather than biological inklings of any kind), so I didn't want to say anything. But I concur with the fact this issue and all the people it can encompass cannot be distilled into any single thesis...such as was tried with gayness and structures of the brain. Each person's development is unique and the understanding of genes and their expression, so intricate in their cross-relationships that I think it's foolish to just look at a whole segment of people and dismiss it one way or another.

[May-chan]

Well. Here is my take...

First off let me establish that I am speaking specifically of transsexuality in specific... the term "transgender" technically encompasses a great many sub-categories ranging from transvestites to sometimes even intersexed individuals (though I see that as falling outside of the transgender umbrella).

It is my belief that amongst any category of humans there are a number of fools, transsexuals included. If I had to subcategorize the TS community I would have 3 groups: the first being those who are active in making things better for others. My hat truly goes off to those individuals to have the courage to be activists for a cause. Then there is the second group which I would fall into. Those who aren't activists or anything but are sound of mind for the most part and really know who they are. Then the third group would be the fools... those who really are being reckless and not going about things wisely. And maybe aren't really TS at all but think they are. These are the people who go about doing unsafe things such as going to back-alley doctors, behaving inappropriately, and not demonstrating too much maturity about their issues (I can't tell you how much I hate it when on forums or whatnot someone asks "hay how do i mak my boobs biggur"). I truly think such individuals should reconsider what they are doing before they make a grave mistake.

(Oh and note, these tiers are made up of pre-transitioners, transitioners, post-transitioners, and non-transitioners)

I don't want to sound insensitive or anything but yes, I do feel uncomfortable around these foolish individuals, and I do feel uncomfortable around certain individuals such as fetishists and "shemales" and such. I mean, from a psychological stand point I can understand them, and it isn't like I dislike them personally or anything. I just want it to be known that MY issues are NOT the same as theirs. While members of the transgender community of any type understand this... most humans do not... most people in society today don't think there is any difference between a transvestite, a drag queen/king, and a transsexual... which is very ignorant indeed... there is a WORLD of difference between those classifications (and others). I mean, saying all transgendered individuals are alike is as foolhardy as saying all cancer patients are alike… of course not! While they might fall under an umbrella category, each subcategory is different and within each of those every individual is so very different! So I guess in my case at least: I don’t want to be thought of in the same light as many of the other subcategories. While I can respect their decisions from a biological/psychological standpoint… I absolutely do not want my issues to be thought of as the same as some part-time-female-impersonating-sex-worker!

But anyways as the issue was getting at: are we fooling ourselves? Well as I established before, I do think there are those that are. Those that are doing so for sexual reasons and maybe misguiding themselves into trouble… or maybe they might be misguiding themselves but are okay with the final result. As with genetic females there are all sorts of ways of presenting one’s-self, it is the same in the TS community. There are many TS individuals who present themselves in a very silly manner as if to parody real women. I’ve noticed these individuals in specific are usually in the older crowd or the younger but low socio-economic crowd. They can do that if they want, but some are fools – other’s just misguided – others really see femininity in a distorted light – other’s might be living out psychosexual fantasies indeed – and finally there might be those of the older crowd who are stuck with the skewered archetype of femininity as they learned in the awful 1950’s when women were brainwashed into a really unfortunate niche as a servant to their man... and the problem is these individuals are often the ones society focuses on when thinking of transsexuals, which is hardly fair as I personally think that they do not represent the whole.

Being TS certainly is not easy, and those of us that are familiar with transition of course know how much money and courage and caution and willpower is involved. So I’d say it takes a lot of street smarts and common sense to survive but also requires a lot of cognitive ability to be able to make such decisions and go about things wisely. So I think the majority of TS individuals are quite intelligent as well as world wise and are able to part with dependency on stereotypes and are able to be emotionally individual and present themselves for who they are. One good example is Erin (who does the Venus Envy webcomic). She’s TS and she isn’t trying to be some hyper-feminine joke, she’s even said it herself, she doesn’t wear makeup and girly stuff and she likes things that are considered by society to be “masculineâ€

[Mitera Nikkou]

I think the entire issue is too complicated to boil it down at all.

I disagree. The reason why we progress anywhere and discern one thing from another is because there are people who manage to boil things down. In a case like this you're likely to come up with a lot of different answers rather than just crystallized salt at the bottom when the water's gone, as May-chan demonstrated. The problem is that most people tend to want to make things easier on themselves, so they often take one of the answers that occurs frequently to describe the whole of something.

Nothing is too complicated if any real effort is put into it; I believe that anything can be done if you put your mind to it. In Bailey's case, he was trying to do the sort of simplification that humans are notorious for, by coming up with a theory that can hardly cover everything. As mentioned by Kerina, there are just so many factors to consider and they vary from person to person and place to place... I'm completely clueless as to how I became the person that I am, for example.

Anyway, I've reasoned out why this psychologist may have theorized what he did, but it in no way can cover everything. But, in my own opinion, I think that he did get another branch, another part of the spectrum, and I wonder if anyone who harassed him (and such things) actually did fall under his view but held the belief that they wanted to be female for what they thought was the right reason and not the reason that he had theorized. People can be wrong about themselves as surely as they can be about other things; I myself may be wrong in my assessments here. But I figure that I might as well try. I feel better considering something seriously than just casting it aside, anyway. I guess I just have a habit of thinking too much. X_X

[Loremistress Eirien]

[quote="May-chan"]So I think the majority of TS individuals are quite intelligent as well as world wise and are able to part with dependency on stereotypes and are able to be emotionally individual and present themselves for who they are. One good example is Erin (who does the Venus Envy webcomic). She’s TS and she isn’t trying to be some hyper-feminine joke, she’s even said it herself, she doesn’t wear makeup and girly stuff and she likes things that are considered by society to be “masculineâ€

[Stellar]

It's certainly been an interesting thread so far ^_^; but honestly I don't care what others think, what others have gone through, and what others preceive reguarding any sort of view or step in being transgendered.

My personal life is all I have to base anything from, and it's not a great comparison to anything mentioned. At the very beginning, yes, I would say it was just an intrest in what sex was like from the other side because I was twelve and just discovering the difference between boys and girl (yea =p i know, it took me that long, i'm just an innocent when it boils down to because I was paying attention in my earlier years of school, it just never really clicked what they were talking about until i had a dream about being a girl then the rest became history) but now sex is something I don't want any part of, and doubt i'll get even after I finally get my srs (not that i'd ever have sex with a man, I just don't see myself meeting another woman to fall in love with).

*Stellar shrugs now that she's done talking about herself without anything to add to the 'general' tg population that everyone else has discussed*

[Sophia Anieri]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this guy never said that all or most transsexuals aren't men trapped in women's bodies, right? He said that there was another type of person who might be interested in a gender change who was interested out of curiosity, or fascination. That's something I know to be a fact based on several people I've met. The critics seem to be taking it completely wrongly, assuming that because other people have different experiences, which he documents, their own experiences are being invalidated.

[SweetSophia]

Wow, I wish I had something more concrete and valid to say on the issue, but I'm really sick of reading things with the start of college.

Correct me if I'm wrong, from what I've skimmed over, the guy doesn't really bother to define his term transgender or narrow it down to a group. That seems kind of bad. I mean if you're going to present an statement like that, it's best to have a clear definition of what you're talking about. Also, it says he pissed a whole lotta people off already with this and is charged with misconduct which leads me to not take this kinda stuff at exactly face value.

Yeah, I agree with May-Chan that the presentation and behavior of Transsexual and Transgender people is highly dependent on their individual personalities and the conceptions/misconceptions they have about women. Heck, I can't say I'm completely clean of not giving into my own skewed viewpoints on femininity, but for the most part my role models were rather tomboyish, geeky and down to earth which makes me a bit more realistic in my own idea of presentation amongst my tomboyish, geeky social groups. Now, as such, I've actually gotten a bit more aggressive and playful in personality whenever presenting as a female which is completely uncharacteristic of man-Sophia who was a bit more introverted and sensitive. I don't abandon my personality, but I do shape my feminine ego with experiences of women I know and can relate to. It's not going to necessarily help someone to pass being all hyper femmy, but it's their own way of presentation, their own way of thinking that they have to work with and it's not always intentional.

The whole sexual thing is a factor, but I don't think anyone should have that as their only reason for undergoing a major lifestyle change. I know the notion of having sex has occurred to me, but it's not something I'd hinge an entire decision on, especially when my beliefs lead me to abstain from it until in a committed relationship. I guess the notion of sex can lead people into re-evaluating their identity, but it becomes a droplet in an ocean of variables, a sea of factors.

It really doesn't seem that a lot of people are taking Mr. Dr. Bailey's work well or even with the proverbial "grain of salt". Psychology is a field where the stuff that's been tested, weathered and provides the most concrete proof is considered "theory" and this guy just seems to be saying something rather invalid while making copious ethical, moral and mis-conduct... mis-conductical violations in his backing research. Frankly, I'm not going to get too wrapped up in what he's trying to tell me until it gets past the ethics committee.

(Haven't really been around much, but as a transsexual psychology student it's like I have to comment or sumthin')

[Rose]

Now because of y'all writing too long i didnt read it,

I just think that most people adapt to TG because of their real body is a mess,That for TG Phases.

Now if some has accept the fact.Then they just feel jelouse or extreamly sad

[Stellar]

Now because of y'all writing too long i didnt read it,

I just think that most people adapt to TG because of their real body is a mess,That for TG Phases.

Now if some has accept the fact.Then they just feel jelouse or extreamly sad

You definately should take the time to read what we've said, that man's blasphemy holds no water.

And... What?

My body is quite lean without any abnormalities. It's my brain that's a mess, and the only jealous feelings is have are when im out and about and see extremely cute girls being themselves without thinking twice that they could have been born a man and have to go through the trials that I'm undergoing. And for being sad, sure, everyone is. My work brings out the angst in me though, not anything related to my gender dysphoria, I feel a whole lot happier with myself now that i'm on the right track to be myself.

With that said, could you make a statement a little more grammatically correct so I can know what you're trying to say?

[Coruscate]

I read the whole article.

First I'd like to talk about this guy's credibility:

Dr. Dreger is the latest to arrive at the battlefront. She is a longtime advocate for people born with ambiguous sexuality and has been strongly critical of sex researchers in the past. She said she had presumed that Dr. Bailey was guilty and, after meeting him through a mutual friend, had decided to investigate for herself.

But in her just-completed account, due to be published next year in The Archives of Sexual Behavior, the field’s premier journal, she concluded that the accusations against the psychologist were essentially groundless.

That's on page 2, I won't quote the rest.

So here we have a recognized voice in the field, an advocate "for us" so to speak... who came in with prejudice and walked out saying he was basically innocent. To me that's the most compelling evidence there.

I've had arguments with homosexuals and people defending pedophiles. Every time I introduced the choice thing, people went batsh*t. Posting pictures of his children with obscene captions? That's nasty. Fugly nasty.

For those that don't know me, I'm here by choice. I'm not a woman in a man's body. I don't believe souls have genders or racial characteristics. If I manage to find a woman I like I'm having a family. If I don't and I ever stumble across the technology to become 100% female with working, functional biological organs I'm changing, and yes I'll be a heterosexual woman.

...but before I get too far, trust me, I have plans to volunteer as a midwife for six months. I figure I'll either come out of the experience going back to being male, or staying female with the confidence to actually start a family.

Course the odds are against that technology ever being found, so I'll most likely be a male for life. I'm not upset.

Back to the topic...

...yes, many people in the GBLT (gay, bi, lesbian, tran) community want to believe that it's a mistake. That's their right of course. And often "choice" is used to attack them and "mistake" is often used to advocate laws they feel will benefit them.

So it is a majorly touchy subject.

Is the dude blameless? Well apparently he doesn't have a license, and while he shouldn't have written those letters, they're just letters and I'm sure that the various laws etc. that are in effect would have at least one person consulting the candidate before hand.

As for the rest, I think it's just noise because he said something they didn't like.

Now is he right?

I think he's partially right in that some people may have started with that somehow.

I think some start out innocently, simply wanting to go female at an early age and they stick that way. As May points out, there's a ton of reasons and explanations and every single person is msot likely going to have more than a single factor involved in it.

As for me? I can't claim innocent to this claim, but then I have a sex drive that could make a horse tired @_@

As for him, at least he had the cajones to make the challenge, and I do respect him for that. Standing in front of an angry crowd of GBLTers that have determined you are public enemy #1 is a scary thing, trust me. And I only dealt with them on newsgroups, I'm sure he had some of those whackjobs calling his house and job. I never had that level of problem.

[SDHero]

I think perhaps the most interesting thing here is that Dr. Bailey never even claimed that ALL transgendered persons were that way as a result of being stimulated by the idea of themselves as a woman. He claimed some were, and I don't see why there can't be more than one road that ends at the TG station, so to speak.

I think it's sad to see someone suggesting a possible theory to explain certain TG behavior was so suddenly and violently shot down and smeared. I understand those people don't want their claims of being born in the wrong body infringed upon, but does that mean that every other transgendered person has to have had the same experience as them?

In any case, the theory intrigues me, I wish I had the ability and certification necessary to research it scientifically.