Infest

[Stellar]

I just can't relate. I swear it's the craziest thing ever, but I have the hardest time connecting with other transsexuals. They disturb me. Really. I can't get it out of my head how weird I find the average transexual. Most seem to live in this fantasy world of high heels, lipstick, and slutty clothes (Sorry but it's true, and no, I don't own anything vaugely hookerish so I do have room to talk because I finally realized that a few of the people I know in real life think that I have this same cop-out fantasy in my head that I go home, change and prance around to).

I wanna say that it's the phase of a particular generation... But I've come across a few transgendered people my age that think the same way... Am I a tomboy? Is that the problem? I mean, honestly, I don't mind getting all dolled up now and then, but I'm highly self concious and know that I look rediculous in dresses, skirts and heels (in these times I go for a more preppy look, not the hookerish crap I mentioned earlier, just to clear that up).

... like whatever, back to what I was first saying; I give up on trying to make transgendered friends. Each time I go to my doctor she asks if I've been to any TG support groups and each time I tell her I haven't. I know she's concerned that I don't have anyone to talk to, but just trying to be around a dozen people that I don't really have anything in common with... (besides the obvious)

I'm tired. So... for now, I give up on this discussion infesting my cranial region.

[Mitera Nikkou]

The easy solution is to accept that it's all relative. ;p

Let me put it this way: I spent years killing my urge to cross-dress and all that. If I ever happen to be a girl I'll never have anything to do with makeup and jewelry. And the clothes that I would aim for would be practical and comfortable, not showy for sexual or some other flamboyant or ego-centric reason.

And yet I don't consider myself a tomboy. Where does the boy come in, in that case, anyway? Of course, knowing how things work, I'm probably a special nutcase. ;/

I wouldn't let it bother you too much. One trait of a person isn't the end all of everything that defines them. Just keep your options open for the kind of person you feel you can "hang" with.

So, do you and I relate? I can't say that I have any idea since I'm at the point where up and down appear the same.

[Sensei Kimiko]

First off I would generally differentiate between most of the TS and most of the TG crowd that I know. The former tends tobe less flashy as they care less about the wrapping and more about what's inside. Still that being said, I tend to think is lack of confidence in some cases, a regection of a masculine side, and perhaps most importantly, a strong desire to be totally unambiguous in thier adopted gender role.

When you think of lack of condfidence that really isn't that unusual for anyone taking thier first steps into anything. Many are taking thier first tentative steps into a feminine world. If you think about it, a lot of teenage genetic girls tend to dress a bit racier than always called for, and popular culture frequently talks about the young daughter getting into mom's make up case. These first efforts are usually fraught with peril as most new wearers need practice and an understanding of how make up should enhance your natural looks, not cover them. Moreover, very few Tanything people actually get help like most genetic girls do, be it from other girls, or older female relatives. While there are some fashion and make up magazines out there, how you can purchase them wiothout looking like a perv is a real challenge.

The reality for the TG/ TS crowd is that they are uncomfortable with the gender assigned to them by thier sex. I have seen the reverse of the MSF norm a few times. I have seen at least a few FtM that regected anything remotely feminine and went full bore for the gun totin beer drinkin macho man image. At MSF most of the membership is however MtF if not in reality at least in curiosity so I ask forgiveness for focusing on that. To some extent society is to blame. Most societies have tightly defined gender roles. Now some of this is inherent to the sex. How we walk is in part a function of our hip design. Regardless of how far you go with surgury, short of major bone work on the pelvis this won't change. Still a lot of the gender roles are defined by society. It might just be my opinion on the matter, but I tend to believe it is less of a 'I'm a slut' mentality as a rejection of anything masculine. It is amusing that I know a number of TG people that can come accross more feminine than a number ofthe TS people I know. The reason is they spend a huge ammount of time practicing the role as it were.Also somewhat related to this, many TG are in some ways experiencing being a teen girl. Thier actual genetic age doesn't matter and with it comes the desire to look the part. This can happen to TS, especially when HRT starts, but from my admittedly limited experiece the effect seems more pronounced in TG.

That relates to my last reasoning. One major link that TG and TS share is the desire for society as a whole to precieve them as female. The core reasons might vary as well as the length of time involved, but both desire it. That core is the key difference in the expression however. Many Tg are so determined to look female that they deliberately choose chothes, make up, and demeanor that are unabaiguously female. Granted they might go overboard, at times but the goal is to leave no doubt in the viewer's mind that they are looking at a woman. The itneresting irony of that can be that in chosing something that looks like a hooker, they attract too much attention and get outted, where toning it down might help.

Perhaps some of the problem is that the flamboyant types stand out so much. Most TG seem to be at least partially in the closet. Even a number that go out at times are shy and avoid contact. Sadly many of the sort like Stellar still are caught in a religious societal prhibition on such behavior and find themselves thinking "Why am I wrong?" I'm not saying Stellar is that way mind, you just saying that the result is you play your cards close and say little to anyone.

[Mitera Nikkou]

One major link that TG and TS share is the desire for society as a whole to precieve them as female. The core reasons might vary as well as the length of time involved, but both desire it.

I knew I was a special nutcase. I suppose I'm far too introverted, detached and apathetic to account for a core. I make believe that society doesn't exist; it's not the boss of me. ;p

Heck, even after what you've said I still can't really tell what the difference is between TS and TG. What's in a name, I suppose. If I had to make something up I'd say that one was more body over mind and the other more mind over body. Which is spirit, if either? Transspirited? I guess I could use that. I won't let static elements determine who I am. I must believe that my thoughts and actions are in part inspired spiritually, or whatever would be equivalent to it. Because one often finds that there's a complete opposite of something in some way or another, and so I think that this static universe can't be alone or, rather, that it has a mutual relationship with opposing STUFFS.

Enough of that, I guess. Don't mind me any. O.o;

[SweetSophia]

Now, I completely understand where you're coming from. I gravitate towards pants, I own one pair of flat slippers that I wear all the time. I have become a little less self conscious when it comes to skirts, but unless they come down to my feet I have taken to wearing something like pants and other things under them. I maybe use two makeup products and right now that's to cover up things.
I can't say that I've never experimented with that kinda look, I guess I can be discredited by having big hooker boots and a mini-mini-skirt in my closet, but that really came out of a misguided attempt at emulating my transgender peers and wasn't me. For one, I prefer to be more comfortable in what I wear which most often means, jeans and a t-shirt and slip on shoes. Another thing is the look I want to project. I like looking like a tomboy, possibly a little punk and I can't deny certain masculine things about myself so why try? I'm going to be wearing camouflage, skulls and comic book logos on my clothing whether male or female.

I think it may simply be an attempt at creating a fantasy image of femininity from values and ideals installed in them. Sometimes the image of femininity, the clothes and makeup and high heels become so valued that it sort of becomes a person. Plus there are a lot of easily imitated role models that seem to impress that image on a lot of any kind of woman if they let them. That's not to say that all of them are imitating it. Some people male or female are just genuinely live in that world and if that works for them wonderful, but I know that doesn't always make them easier to relate to. Sometimes you have to take people you meet with a grain of salt and occasionally you find someone whose world more closely resembles your own.

[Josh-May]

I'm not entirely sure where this conversation sets, but my opinion on TS /TG people going through this to live a life of a hooker is retarded, you may as well do the SRS yourself with a rusty razor blade.

i personally considered myself TG at one point, i still feel that way from time to time, and i do have urges to cross dress (with whatever i have) but if i were to somehow able to achieve my view of being female (other than what my art may describe) i wouldn't do it for the pleasure. I'd be female because thats what i was meant to be, and then I'd do my damnedest to become the girl i was supposed to be. not sell out for sex.

i apologize if i offended anyone but i had to say this because i have seen that waaay to many times and it's just gotten on my final nerve. just because you're proud to achieve womanhood doesn't mean to show it off in that way.

i will never attain such goal however. i do not consider it worth it. yes inside i know i feel messed up about it, but god did something to have me this way, so I'll go with it, and just hope that when i have a family that I have girls.

Again, i apologize if i was offending, or offtopic.

[SweetSophia]

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think we're talking about actually prostitution but simply dressing in a manner that to Stellar resembles that of a hooker; particularly high heels, skimpy dresses, miniskirts etc. that may be adopted by many transgender peoples.

I'm sure most people would agree that hookerism is bad and that leading the life of a hookerista is not a fulfillment of most transgendered persons'es dreams.

Unless of course you're referring to the style of dress. If you are, then I've got to ask, are you insinuating that transgendered people who have affected that manner of dress were not meant to be women?

[Nylena]

I am thinking it might have something to do with recognition of your position among people. You don't go out of your way to connect with other transsexuals in that way because doing so just continues to set you apart from the rest of the world. Your position is normal, it's who you are so you don't need constant reminders that you were different from others. I say "were" because you're not different anymore except for the fact of where you come from. You're a woman, you don't need to seek out other transsexuals, just friends. If some just turn out to also be transsexuals, well then alright.

As far as the type of dress, my opinion is that they're trying to make up for a percieved lack of female "expression" from the time of not being physically female and think that the best way is to show off their new curves more than is necessary. It can be easy to forget that it's about more than just the body.

[Stellar]

Okay the fricken messageboard just logged me off after an hour fine tuning a reply. So this is gonna be short and sweet.

Nylena, you deserve a cookie. I was dancing around that idea the other night and I realized I don't consider myself trans-anything, I'm Stellar Hope. Strangers don't have any question of what gender i am these days. The best part is new employees don't have any other notions until someone says 'he' or slips up and uses my old name.

There was lots more I had to say, but I don't feel like trying to figure out what it was I said. Perhaps I'll get to it later when I'm not grumpy anymore.

[Nylena]

Oooh, a yummy cookie, thanks. *munch munch* Auf wuf gad ta hewlph. Mmmm, good cookie.

I just know that if I were you I'd see those transsexuals and be like "Come on, you've made the total transition, stop harping on the whole thing. You've passed being transsexual, now you're as female as you can be so start living like it. This continued dwelling on the past is just weird." Because, you know, if you still can't cope with your choice without a group around to justify your decision you should have just stayed in transition. After all, the term "transsexual" really only works as the proper term during the transitional phases from MtF or FtM. Once that's over with you're female, a woman, congratulations, done.

[Christina Anikari]

I really know where you are coming from about that. Most transsexuals freak me out, yes i know it is both bigoted and hypocritical, there is just something freaky about someone more masculine and older than my father dressing like Britney Spears, yes i have seen it...it's not pretty. Also the neither the hyper-feminine nor the slutty style really suits what i want to look like or what i consider attractive in women. Of course for my own look i plan on getting my hair dyed to some freaky color, most likely blue, and my lower lip pierced when i get the money so that should say volumes about my style, also make-up isn't me too much. It is annoying to apply and to remove again, also i don't really need it so i don't bother most of the time. Instead i stick to a casual, somewhat modest look fitting for a girl who is enough of a nerd to be able to have conversations for hours that switch randomly between Chinese pop culture in the Ming dynasty and absurd stories that happened during my last gaming session. Really what i see myself as is a rather geeky intellectual who just happens to have awkward issues that need to be overcome.

As for why some people do go into the some extreme way of showing off being female, then i think Sophia hit the nail on the head. It is a way to let the outside world determine their life and identity instead of having to deal with sore topics themselves. Well that and a common human tendency to just emulate people to show belonging to a group.

[Amy-chan]

Being a pre-op MTF transsexual myself, living in the Real Life Experience, I'll put my two cents in.

I am just me, Amanda, in daily life, I act as comes natural to me. I dress like other women in general do and as appropriate to the situation/occasion. At various time I have worn all of the following (the woman's version of things that exist for both men and women): casual slacks, dress slacks, blue-jeans, shorts, skorts, skirts, blouses, t-shirts (not plain ones), sweaters, pants suits, dress suits, casual dresses, dressy dresses, and one piece bathing suits.

I don't dress slutty, and I don't do heavy make-up. But I have the advantage of having a friend who is a genetic girl. Back when I was first starting to transition, she taught me make-up from the woman's angle, and helped me solidify my own sense of feminine style.

I also think that Sophia hit the nail on the head as to why some trans girls do overdo it.

[Gee-chan]

When I read these stories that deal with the reality of TG I tend to get sort of depressed. It not as bad now (I used to get really depressed about what creation, in it's infinite wisdome, made me be. Some days I just couldn't bear to go outside into the world because of it. Eventually after spending well over a week in this state it subsided as I slowly bagan to come to terms with myself.) but it still crops up every now and again.
I have often had the urge to crossdress but have never had the courage to do so, I always wind up thinking "What if my friends/family find out? What will they think?" (for me this is a problem, I've have a hard enough time trying to fit in and not have life be a misery socially as well as internally) and back away from it. It's ironic that a guy who has always prided himself on making his own decisions is scared of what other people will think.
I don't know, is this just part of growing up or is it just me? Either way its not healthy being only 16 and having already been on the verge of mental breakdown.
Another thing. Why is it that I can openly admit to these things here on MSF when in the real world I find myself unable to do anything but vaguely refer to it?

[Anamnesis]

That may be because you feel rather safe, here. Most of us are alike...I, for one, have developed a deep seated hatred of the people around me, and lock myself away from them in an effort to save them from me. I can pour my feelings into this place, as can many others. For some of us, those here are the only real friends we ever had, and for others, they're still very good friends. I nearly hit my mother the other day when she said that all this place was were 'friends by proxy.' (COntinuing later)

[Gee-chan]

Yeah, I suppose your right. I guess I can be open with you guys because I know that at least some of you have gone through the same thing.
"Friends through proxy"? I was almost about to say that you should have hit you mum for that, but that would have been wrong. True for some people/communities what you talk to on the web is nothing like the person in reality (whether this is a good thing or not is up to the reader), but here we are genuinly friends. The fact that we live all over the place makes it even better because you are not limited to a specific peer group. MSF at some points has been the only place where I could go and be liked. If that was only proxy friendship then I don't need the real thing, I'll just make without it like I always had.