A real choice...

[Raijin]

Dragons, enough said.

[Syllinia]

Dragons have a long, long history of losing to humans when push comes to shove. Demons generally only lose when the humans have the home advantage, and the best ones are not only nigh unstoppable, but very interesting fellows as well. Humans > Dragons, Demons > all.

[Kether]

Above and beyond? Bull. They are children playing in the ruins of greatness. Taking what their primitive minds can possibly grasp.

Yeah. So? If they didn't, they'd be wiped out.
And despite their inexperience and youth, they do a darn good job with their primitive minds too.

No, no they don't. They don't live up to anything and claim to be the greatest.

The Dwarf Kingdom is still in its death throws and when it happens humanity will bear the brunt of the green Skins. The Empire is not on par with the Elves of old.. or the Dwarves.. and DEFINATELY not the Slann.. they may not even be on par with the Ogre of old. Perhaps Cathay is.. but its ruled by a Dragon.

(Shrugs)
We'll have to agree to disagree. The Dwarves, Lizardmen, and Elves are all dying empires that can't sustain their own populations under the same conditions under which the humans are thriving. Right there, in my opinion, men become more awesome than they are, regardless of all other considerations. Maybe not more awesome than they USED to be, but I see no reason to count the empires that already crumbled and can't be restored.
Oh, another point in men's favor: every time the Empire gets its butt kicked, it gets rebuilt in something like two generations to maintain its position as the strongest power in the Warhammer World. Go men.

Same conditions? The Dwarves are in a constant state of war with the Greenskins. If the Empire were in a constant state of someone trying to invade it each and every second that lives on its border it would colapse. its just lucky it only gets "chaos ruins your cities for afew weeks" every so often.

The Elves they are definately hurting from their mistakes.. but they are hurting from theirown wounds wounds that humanity has had little chance to deal with. They too are close to a constant state of war and have to deal with the damage caused from Slaanesh.

The only humans who are in the same state as the Elves are the Bretonians... I don't think they could possibly be more of the Wood Elves posers.

The lizard empire still grows. The Slann are dying because they cannot breed. Still even the skinks have a higher understanding of the metaphysical principles of the unverse than man.. they aren't forced into the "colors of Magic" after all.

[Adell Plushie]

I respectfully disagree. I think the Empire has done very well for itself, and will continue to do so, thanks to the awesome adaptability, versatility, and "poser"-ness of the human race. It seems to me that by taking the best aspects of the older, dying races, humans - without a doubt the one of the frailest, slowest, short-lived races in the Warhammer world and many others - have become greater than those same races.
Oh, also, we breed like rabbits. Breeding is awesome, too.

[Kether]

I respectfully disagree. I think the Empire has done very well for itself, and will continue to do so, thanks to the awesome adaptability, versatility, and "poser"-ness of the human race. It seems to me that by taking the best aspects of the older, dying races, humans - without a doubt the one of the frailest, slowest, short-lived races in the Warhammer world and many others - have become greater than those same races.
Oh, also, we breed like rabbits. Breeding is awesome, too.

Of course you are going to disagree. You have this "human uber alles" thing. I will however at least give the Empire props for not being "Dwarf Kingdom lite' like Bretonia is to the Wood Elves. Still the Empire is in no way enduring the same conditions of the other races. Constant war? the Damage of birthing a chaos god? The Complete and utter distruction of the way things had worked on a metaphysical level? The Empire has not had to face such things.. if it did I doubt it would survive.


As for being awesome from being great scavengers, Adapters and Breeders....look beneath the surface to who owns that title in the warhammer world.

[Adell Plushie]

Hey, I've backed up my "human uber alles" thing (whatever that is) plenty.
And as far as I can tell from Warhammer fluff, the Empire IS constantly at war. Beastmen, Skaven, Vampires, Chaos raiders (also men, so their awesome is factored in as well), Ogre raiders, Orcs, etc. Most of the most famous Orc Warbosses are famous for WAAAAAUGHs that hit the Empire, not Dwarven strongholds (I suspect that it's hard to get Orcs as worked up about assaulting a little hole in the ground), and each one of those were turned back by the Empire.
When they're not busy defending their Empire - straight-up the biggest, richest, most powerful nation in the present Warhammer world (stated in the lore) - they're usually busy waging offensive wars to purge forests of beastmen or expand their settlements.
Could they survive a tide of Orcs or Chaos that the elves and dwarves couldn't stop? Maybe. It's a hypothetical scenario. I'm approaching this from the more concrete side: the Empire is strong and growing. The races they copy are weakened and dying. I don't really care if they're "Dwarf Kingdom lite" or "Elf Empire lite". That isn't a factor for me. If they're doing better than the dwarves and the elves, that IS a factor.

[Kether]

Hey, I've backed up my "human uber alles" thing (whatever that is) plenty.
And as far as I can tell from Warhammer fluff, the Empire IS constantly at war. Beastmen, Skaven, Vampires, Chaos raiders (also men, so their awesome is factored in as well), Ogre raiders, Orcs, etc. Most of the most famous Orc Warbosses are famous for WAAAAAUGHs that hit the Empire, not Dwarven strongholds (I suspect that it's hard to get Orcs as worked up about assaulting a little hole in the ground), and each one of those were turned back by the Empire.

No there is a big difference between attacked soemtimes. and "Your entire civilization is under seige" And all the Big Orc Warg's have already destroyed a dwarf city to even get to the Empire. There are bandits. There are raids but not constant seige.


The Empire is surounded by to the west Bretonnia and Avalon, to the South Tilea, to the North Norse country to the northeast Kislev, to the East Dwarf country, to the South east Araby. WIth the vampire Kingdoms being nominally part of the western Empire. Its not like the Dwarf situation at all.

When they're not busy defending their Empire - straight-up the biggest, richest, most powerful nation in the present Warhammer world (stated in the lore) -

Cathay is richer

they're usually busy waging offensive wars to purge forests of beastmen or expand their settlements.

No, those are cleaning up the equivalent of banditry. The Forests are already claimed by the Empire its just cleaning out malcontents. Its like saying you are at war with Robin Hood.

Could they survive a tide of Orcs or Chaos that the elves and dwarves couldn't stop? Maybe. It's a hypothetical scenario. I'm approaching this from the more concrete side: the Empire is strong and growing. The races they copy are weakened and dying. I don't really care if they're "Dwarf Kingdom lite" or "Elf Empire lite". That isn't a factor for me. If they're doing better than the dwarves and the elves, that IS a factor.

You know who's doing the best in the warhammer world? the Halflings. They don't have anyone destroying their lands. They have say in their lives and are protected on all sides by a others who will have to take the brunt of any force that tries to destroy them.

The Empire exists in a similar situation. To get to it you have to go through someone else. By the time anything is attacking them they've worn themselves down on something else. This is what allows it to flourish.

[Adell Plushie]

No there is a big difference between attacked soemtimes. and "Your entire civilization is under seige" And all the Big Orc Warg's have already destroyed a dwarf city to even get to the Empire. There are bandits. There are raids but not constant seige.

Nobody could lay constant siege to the Empire, because it's a bunch of open land dotted with towns, cities, castle, etc. The entire Skaven race couldn't siege the Empire at once.

The Empire is surounded by to the west Bretonnia and Avalon, to the South Tilea, to the North Norse country to the northeast Kislev, to the East Dwarf country, to the South east Araby. WIth the vampire Kingdoms being nominally part of the western Empire. Its not like the Dwarf situation at all.

So... I'm supposed to dock them points because they're apparently smart enough to get others to help defend them?
I'll accept that they're not engaged in constant war to the extent of the dwarves, but I'll state again that it doesn't really matter from my point of view. The Empire made very good friends with the dwarves, and the dwarves gave them technology, and constantly helped fight off the greenskins that might have attacked the Empire otherwise.
So it turns out that humans thrive through diplomacy instead of just warfare. Still no loss of points.

Cathay is richer

Okay, fair enough.
Of course, I'm taking the stance of defending men on the whole, so Cathay counts, despite having a lizard for a king. The Empire is the strongest example of mankind's awesome in Warhammer, but all of man's armies are awesome. The Chaos devotees, the Bretonians, the Kislevites... even the Tomb Kings before Nagash (skeletons = suckage).

As for the Skaven you mentioned earlier, though, they ARE awesome. Not as awesome as men, but certainly more awesome than elves, dwarves, vampires, and lizardmen.

Points for Skaven:
Free will: ++
Adaptability/thriving: ++
Intelligence: +
Technology: +
Magic: +
Civilization: +
Economy (basis: warfare and political intrigue!): +
Ninjas: +++ (yet another example of a race "posing" to awesome effect)
Advancement: ++
Breeding: ++
Guns: +++

Points against Skaven:
Slaves in combat: -
Regularly opens fire on own troops: --
They're rats: -
Extreme cowardice: -
Limited ability to trade with other races: -
Paranoid: -
Holed up underground: -
Civilization kinda sucks: -
Communal lifestyle combined with extreme selfishness (at the same time, they also have a short lifespan combined with a powerful sense of self-preservation): -

[Kether]

No there is a big difference between attacked soemtimes. and "Your entire civilization is under seige" And all the Big Orc Warg's have already destroyed a dwarf city to even get to the Empire. There are bandits. There are raids but not constant seige.

Nobody could lay constant siege to the Empire, because it's a bunch of open land dotted with towns, cities, castle, etc. The entire Skaven race couldn't siege the Empire at once.

Fine not siege, Constant complete and utter warfare, This is not what the Empire faces.

The Empire is surounded by to the west Bretonnia and Avalon, to the South Tilea, to the North Norse country to the northeast Kislev, to the East Dwarf country, to the South east Araby. WIth the vampire Kingdoms being nominally part of the western Empire. Its not like the Dwarf situation at all.

So... I'm supposed to dock them points because they're apparently smart enough to get others to help defend them?
I'll accept that they're not engaged in constant war to the extent of the dwarves, but I'll state again that it doesn't really matter from my point of view. The Empire made very good friends with the dwarves, and the dwarves gave them technology, and constantly helped fight off the greenskins that might have attacked the Empire otherwise.
So it turns out that humans thrive through diplomacy instead of just warfare. Still no loss of points.

My point is that the Empire is the power it is because of luck of geography. if it had been Dwarves, or Elves or Lizardmen or whatever they would be that powerful its all about luck.

Cathay is richer

Okay, fair enough.
Of course, I'm taking the stance of defending men on the whole, so Cathay counts, despite having a lizard for a king. The Empire is the strongest example of mankind's awesome in Warhammer, but all of man's armies are awesome. The Chaos devotees, the Bretonians, the Kislevites... even the Tomb Kings before Nagash (skeletons = suckage).

Nagash created Necromancy. I am going to go with "Doesn't turn into a lame vampire" as a bonus for all races but man. Man alone can be effected by Necromancy, because Man's great fear of death.

As for the Skaven you mentioned earlier, though, they ARE awesome. Not as awesome as men, but certainly more awesome than elves, dwarves, vampires, and lizardmen.

You just included tombkings as humans, but now try and remove vampires? Accept the vampires and their lameness!

Points for Skaven:
Free will: ++
Adaptability/thriving: ++
Intelligence: +
Technology: +
Magic: +
Civilization: +
Economy (basis: warfare and political intrigue!): +
Ninjas: +++ (yet another example of a race "posing" to awesome effect)
Advancement: ++
Breeding: ++
Guns: +++

Points against Skaven:
Slaves in combat: -
Regularly opens fire on own troops: --
They're rats: -
Extreme cowardice: -
Limited ability to trade with other races: -
Paranoid: -
Holed up underground: -
Civilization kinda sucks: -
Communal lifestyle combined with extreme selfishness (at the same time, they also have a short lifespan combined with a powerful sense of self-preservation): -

Ninjas are obviously discounted because then you have to claim Dark elf superiority with their pirates.


Rats are clean and industrious, Apes throw crap.

Slavery.. oh that's a thorny issue. Feudalism is about as bad as slavery which is what the entirity of humanity is in. Rather than being able to sell a person though a person is considered a part of the land. Its a nasty time for them.. Still Bergers do well enough.. but then so do higher ranking skaven.

As you accepted earlier that Chaos Devotees and Tomb Kings are of man they regularly attack the living, the Empire etc So you can't say that Humans fire less upon theirown kind.

How often do humans trade with the chaos Dwarves or Green Skins?


As for short life spans, ask a dwarf about human life spans...

[Adell Plushie]

My point is that the Empire is the power it is because of luck of geography. if it had been Dwarves, or Elves or Lizardmen or whatever they would be that powerful its all about luck.

You took an awful long time and made an awful lot of completely different statements to arrive at that "point".
And I don't buy it. There's nothing tying men down; they can, and DO, choose where to settle. And instead of choosing nigh-impenetrable mountain fortresses, isolated islands, or jungles in the middle of nowhere, they happened to choose wide open lands surrounded by more wide open lands where other men settled (bordered on one side by mountains and on the other side by an ocean. And yet their survival is pinned on the geography of their lands, which is attributed entirely to "luck". That doesn't make any sense to me. Humans worked to survive. You might argue that they worked LESS than the other species; whatever. It doesn't matter to me. They built, they fought, they made allies, they copied others, and they thrived.

Nagash created Necromancy. I am going to go with "Doesn't turn into a lame vampire" as a bonus for all races but man. Man alone can be effected by Necromancy, because Man's great fear of death.

First of all, that's obviously not true, because there are plenty of undead non-humans (carrion, the tomb swarms).
Second, the vampiric solution was distilled from Dark Elf sorcery. More of your "posing".
And third, because of their fear of death? Get real; goblins and skaven fear death even more than humans, yet aren't susceptible. There's a different reason.

You just included tombkings as humans, but now try and remove vampires? Accept the vampires and their lameness!

Of course I remove vampires. Once a human is turned into a vampire, it's no longer a human. Why should it drag down men?

Ninjas are obviously discounted because then you have to claim Dark elf superiority with their pirates.

Who says I don't give Dark Elves points for having pirates? I make my judgments fairly. They lose so many points elsewhere that they cover for it.

Rats are clean and industrious, Apes throw crap.

Clean? No. Not the Skaven. It says quite clearly that they live among the all kinds of filth. They have a clan that worships it.
Of course, so do men. So in this respect they're equal. But still, Skaven are rats. Sucks for them.

Slavery.. oh that's a thorny issue. Feudalism is about as bad as slavery which is what the entirity of humanity is in. Rather than being able to sell a person though a person is considered a part of the land. Its a nasty time for them.. Still Bergers do well enough.. but then so do higher ranking skaven.

As you accepted earlier that Chaos Devotees and Tomb Kings are of man they regularly attack the living, the Empire etc So you can't say that Humans fire less upon theirown kind.

First of all, I said "Battle slaves". Slavery is one thing. Using slaves as soldiers is stupid.
And I said "fire upon their own troops". Please pay attention. Big difference between firing upon your own species and firing upon your own army.

How often do humans trade with the chaos Dwarves or Green Skins?

Plenty! Chaos humans do it all the time!
Well, maybe not so much with Orcs... then again, if anyone trades with Orcs other than Orcs, it would be Chaos tribes.

As for short life spans, ask a dwarf about human life spans...

Yeah, humans aren't great in that arena. Just better than Skaven. So if a species is worse off in the case of life span and cowardly instinct, it amounts to a loss. If a species is better, they get points. Like I said, I ju

[Kether]

My point is that the Empire is the power it is because of luck of geography. if it had been Dwarves, or Elvesor Lizardmen or whatever they would be that powerful its all about luck.

You took an awful long time and made an awful lot of completely different statements to arrive at that "point".
And I don't buy it. There's nothing tying men down; they can, and DO, choose where to settle. And instead of choosing nigh-impenetrable mountain fortresses, isolated islands, or jungles in the middle of nowhere, they happened to choose wide open lands surrounded by more wide open lands where other men settled (bordered on one side by mountains and on the other side by an ocean. And yet their survival is pinned on the geography of their lands, which is attributed entirely to "luck". That doesn't make any sense to me. Humans worked to survive. You might argue that they worked LESS than the other species; whatever. It doesn't matter to me. They built, they fought, they made allies, they copied others, and they thrived.

You place the Empire as an example of the Greatness that man holds because its strong and rich and all that. I say its only that case because Elves left that land because of the war with the Dwarves thousands upon thousands of years ago.

Do you wish to use another country as the Standards of humanity? perhaps the Chaos Wastes? They are much beloved by their gods after all

Nagash created Necromancy. I am going to go with "Doesn't turn into a lame vampire" as a bonus for all races but man. Man alone can be effected by Necromancy, because Man's great fear of death.

First of all, that's obviously not true, because there are plenty of undead non-humans (carrion, the tomb swarms).
Second, the vampiric solution was distilled from Dark Elf sorcery. More of your "posing".
And third, because of their fear of death? Get real; goblins and skaven fear death even more than humans, yet aren't susceptible. There's a different reason.

Nope that's the reason straight out of the libre Necromantica. Humans fear death more fully, give it a greater import in their life than other species.. thus necromancy.

You just included tombkings as humans, but now try and remove vampires? Accept the vampires and their lameness!

Of course I remove vampires. Once a human is turned into a vampire, it's no longer a human. Why should it drag down men?

Then why do the Tomb Kings count? or the Servants of chaos? Do Beastmen Count? When does it stop being human to you? When it starts being lame?

Ninjas are obviously discounted because then you have to claim Dark elf superiority with their pirates.

Who says I don't give Dark Elves points for having pirates? I make my judgments fairly. They lose so many points elsewhere that they cover for it.

As long as you acknowledge pirates beat ninjas

Rats are clean and industrious, Apes throw crap.

Clean? No. Not the Skaven. It says quite clearly that they live among the all kinds of filth. They have a clan that worships it.
Of course, so do men. So in this respect they're equal. But still, Skaven are rats. Sucks for them.

And men are apes, sucks to be a monkey without a tail.

Slavery.. oh that's a thorny issue. Feudalism is about as bad as slavery which is what the entirity of humanity is in. Rather than being able to sell a person though a person is considered a part of the land. Its a nasty time for them.. Still Bergers do well enough.. but then so do higher ranking skaven.

As you accepted earlier that Chaos Devotees and Tomb Kings are of man they regularly attack the living, the Empire etc So you can't say that Humans fire less upon theirown kind.

First of all, I said "Battle slaves". Slavery is one thing. Using slaves as soldiers is stupid.
And I said "fire upon their own troops". Please pay attention. Big difference between firing upon your own species and firing upon your own army.

Battle slaves were made use of by the Romans and Arabs, its a fairly effective tactic especially with a race like the Skaven. As for firing upon theirown side? They have the numbers.. its no different than the Chaos Dwarves.

How often do humans trade with the chaos Dwarves or Green Skins?

Plenty! Chaos humans do it all the time!
Well, maybe not so much with Orcs... then again, if anyone trades with Orcs other than Orcs, it would be Chaos tribes.

So the points are deducted because the Skaven can't trade with Elves or Dwarves also I can't think of any human who trade with the Lizardmen

As for short life spans, ask a dwarf about human life spans...

Yeah, humans aren't great in that arena. Just better than Skaven. So if a species is worse off in the case of life span and cowardly instinct, it amounts to a loss. If a species is better, they get points. Like I said, I ju

Do slann just win the scheme then since they get "older than humanity as a race" for longevity?

[Adell Plushie]

You place the Empire as an example of the Greatness that man holds because its strong and rich and all that. I say its only that case because Elves left that land because of the war with the Dwarves thousands upon thousands of years ago.

Do you wish to use another country as the Standards of humanity? perhaps the Chaos Wastes? They are much beloved by their gods after all

ALL human settlements are a testament to man's greatness. The Empire is the best because they're the most powerful. The fact that men can thrive in plenty of other places is proof that you can't pin their survival on luck.
I don't have to choose a "standard". And while your hypothesis about the human race's survival is LEGITIMATE, at least, it's far from conclusive. I see no evidence that the Empire ended up being so well protected "just because of luck".

Nope that's the reason straight out of the libre Necromantica. Humans fear death more fully, give it a greater import in their life than other species.. thus necromancy.

And yet, that is a direct discrepency with the Warhammer world. Do horses fear death as much as humans? There are plenty of undead horses. What other undead species are there?
You see, regardless of what your book says, it doesn't trump the fact that there are other species upon with Necromancy works. Thus I see no reason why humans should lose points because people can mess with their corpses.

Then why do the Tomb Kings count? or the Servants of chaos? Do Beastmen Count? When does it stop being human to you? When it starts being lame?

I said SPECIFICALLY that the Tomb Kings counted "before Nagash". Meaning "before there was any undead mojo".
The men of Chaos count until they become a spawn or a daemon. This can be a thin line... but usually isn't.

As long as you acknowledge pirates beat ninjas

I don't acknowledge that. I acknowledge that both are awesome.

And men are apes, sucks to be a monkey without a tail.

First of all, men are not apes. Second of all, monkeys are cool.
Third of all... What's with the attitude against humans?
I've made my points. I've given you step-by-step reasoning for why I find men awesome. I even have a scale that I showed you. I think I've made it about as clear as I can that I'm not operating on an "uber alles" or whatever you called it before.
You obviously have a vendetta here, and it seems to upset you greatly that I don't share it. You've long since stopped arguing for what makes dinosaurs awesome, and instead seek to drive the human race down as far as possible. In MY eyes, no less; you're no longer arguing about why YOU think men suck, because I already stated that I don't care about your reasons, but rather you look at it from MY reasoning and try to paint them in as bad a light as possible. It's weird, and it's a little silly.

Do slann just win the scheme then since they get "older than humanity as a race" for longevity?

You don't want to see the Lizardmen on my scale. Their points dive DEEP into the negative.
... Although, yes, they get points for longevity.

[Adell Plushie]

After some thought, I withdraw Tomb Kings entirely from being counted among the human race.
This is on account of them not being human; they're a "race" of undead constructs currently, and counting the civilization while they were still human would mean counting a civilization that has already been wiped out. Since I refused to count ancient Dwarf, Elven, and lizardman civilizations, that wouldn't be fair.
So no Tomb Kings. We have Chaos tribes, the Empire, Kislev, Cathay except for their ruler, Bretonnia, border princes, and random settlements all over the place.

[Kether]

After some thought, I withdraw Tomb Kings entirely from being counted among the human race.
This is on account of them not being human; they're a "race" of undead constructs currently, and counting the civilization while they were still human would mean counting a civilization that has already been wiped out. Since I refused to count ancient Dwarf, Elven, and lizardman civilizations, that wouldn't be fair.
So no Tomb Kings. We have Chaos tribes, the Empire, Kislev, Cathay except for their ruler, Bretonnia, border princes, and random settlements all over the place.

Cathay is a dragon civilization, much like how the Empire rules over the Moot. Dragons rule over men. Bretonnia might be worse seeing as they are an entire development by the wood elves to be used as a human shield...


So you'd have Empire, Tilea, Kislev, Norse Tribes, Araby, Nippon

[Adell Plushie]

Cathay is a dragon civilization, much like how the Empire rules over the Moot. Dragons rule over men. Bretonnia might be worse seeing as they are an entire development by the wood elves to be used as a human shield...


So you'd have Empire, Tilea, Kislev, Norse Tribes, Araby, Nippon

I'll accept this premise, not because I agree with it, but because it's not important enough to be worth adding to what's already become an exhaustive debate.
So can we accept this as a disagreement of opinion without making claims of "you're just holding humans above everything else"? (I finally looked up that phrase) It was obvious we had different standards for awesomeness way back when you claimed humans were lame because they were posers and I stated that I didn't care. I also accept that because of that standard you find dinosaurs to be awesome because the bizarre conspiracy I've never heard of that has dinosaurs creating human civilization. There's really no point in you trying to make humans look bad.