Damn the "TGTF games" site!

[Mitera Nikkou]

I don't handle Nikkou with kids gloves, either. I'm afraid that no one's found the right kind of gloves to handle her with.

I was thinking (and discussing), just recently, of making something that was a hybrid of a comic and a flash movie, which would include voice acting, for MSF. Unfortunately, there's something wrong with my mouse, which randomly double-clicks, doesn't register a click, fails to move the cursor in one direction, or makes the cursor zoom off in some random direction. There are short periods when none of that happens, but I never know when or exactly how long it will last. Basically, it's just not in any condition for drawing things. ;/

And I did set up a way for a forum topic to act like a "choose your own adventure" story, but, as it usually turns out, the idea was a flop. One of these days I'll flip. Oh-ho!

[Bigmouthstrikes]

Now, with that said, I'd like to add that I think you're a bit too hard on the younger breed of posters. I do believe that there are original concepts created here, and creative work that takes place. To dismiss everything we do as scatterbrained and unoriginal seems a bit unfair.

Oh, naturally. There are original concepts being created here. I'm not sure where you're getting me saying people here are scatterbrained and unoriginal, that's really putting words in my mouth. If the people were masticating over the same topics over and over again like JRPGs have been content to do for the last fifteen years, I'd probably not be so perennially frustrated.The "younger breed of posters" here are mindblowingly creative.
But if "everything they do" is just nonsense in the muffin room and IRC, their talent is going to waste because they can't really share it with anyone but their immediate fellows. Not to mention that whatever they create eventually gets buried in a backlog of posts, never to really be seen again. Is something so ephemeral and context-constricted really something to be proud of? That depends on one's point of view, sure, but at the end of the day no one outside the initiated is going to know or appreciate the work. At the end of the day, I just don't want to see their gift squandered on something that isn't typically shared more than once. I think people's self esteem issues here would see a lot of improvement to make something solid and be able to say "I made that".

I may be pissed off with how the TGTF game site is run, but there is no denying how much their community is based on creating and sharing. Granted, most of them just make use of RAGS (guys, did I mention it's easy yet?) and tons of stolen photos of models and such but it's nice they create for themselves and for people they've not even met. You know, their fellow seekers of blatant porn.

I reacted with that statement because you made ones like this:

I mean, part of why I stopped posting at MSF was because it was becoming more about a bunch of kids jumping around posting random nonsense like they need intravenous injections of ritalin, but at least there was a persisting theme! At least the site never lost its community identity!

and

I always got frustrated with MSF and MSFers because I kept envisioning a much healthier* community where people create and share lots of original artwork and stories and even stuff like RPGmaker games.

or

I just wish badly I could shake MSFers out of creative apathy and get us producing stuff that'd shame those perverts

See, you say that I'm putting words in your mouth when I criticize your statements on our creativity, and then, in the same breath, dismiss everything that goes on in the Muffin Room as nonsense. I personally think that there's a lot to be said for a community that has developed its own universe, cannon and rules the way that we have here. It's not a waste of one's creative talent at all to co-author an ongoing story with friendly and familiar posters. What we do here in terms of story writing and world creation is absolutely on par with what's going on in the other places you mentioned, and we do without having every aspect of it ultimately dissolve into pornography and lewd sex acts.

[Ninian]

See, you say that I'm putting words in your mouth when I criticize your statements on our creativity, and then, in the same breath, dismiss everything that goes on in the Muffin Room as nonsense. I personally think that there's a lot to be said for a community that has developed its own universe, cannon and rules the way that we have here. It's not a waste of one's creative talent at all to co-author an ongoing story with friendly and familiar posters. What we do here in terms of story writing and world creation is absolutely on par with what's going on in the other places you mentioned, and we do without having every aspect of it ultimately dissolve into pornography and lewd sex acts.

If there is something worth reading in the Muffin Room, it's basically drowned out by noise and randomness that has very little meaning to anyone with a serious personality (mine). If there is stuff worth reading there -- and I'm sure there is -- the barrier to entry is too high to get to it. I don't want to have to scroll down five hundred posts about squirtguns, cat ears, random pies or whatever to get to the gold. I also stand by my harsh criticisms: I don't think you can basically copy and paste the text of various roleplays here and call it a portfolio. Nobody is bothering to record what is created in an immediately accessible and readable form that can be appreciated by anyone outside of the immediate circle. Like it or not, I personally consider that wasted. It's exactly the same thing as a gifted storyteller of a pen and paper GM whose talent will never be appreciated and whose inspired works are doomed to be forgotten by anyone outside his group -- preserved only by cheeto dust and mountain dew ring-stains. Granted, if you want to take the BIG BIG picture, all creative works are basically doomed to obscurity but at least if they're accessible they have a chance to touch many more people's lives if the creator cares enough to put in the effort. Sometimes a work can take a life of its own to a degree nobody could have ever expected. (one of the few times I've ever linked that in a serious context...)

tl;dr: The crux of my argument is that whatever is created deep in the Muffin Room (ugh) or roleplaying isn't as accessible as those other sites. I'm not saying what you're creating is bad or even uncreative, just that your audience is basically narrowed down to anyone who has the stomach to wade through noise and has an interest in posting on forums to begin with. In that regard, MSF's rival communities -- even and especially ones we agree as being disgusting -- would probably be considered superior to an outsider, who will immediately be able to appreciate the content because of it being in a recognizable and readable form. If you're taking the position that anyone who doesn't want to endure the Muffin Room or have to piece together the context of various roleplaying posts doesn't deserve to look at what's being created, then I don't think we have anything in common and will have nothing to gain by arguing.

[Blaze]

It's all well and good to say that we're a stagnant community and telling us to go out and flex our creativity, but what have you done since coming back? Whinge about how much we suck and telling us to get off our asses. Why don't you go and use this super-easy-to-use game engine and make something?

I'll be over in the Muffin Room. Having fun.

[Ninian]

It's all well and good to say that we're a stagnant community and telling us to go out and flex our creativity, but what have you done since coming back? Whinge about how much we suck and telling us to get off our asses. Why don't you go and use this super-easy-to-use game engine and make something?

Ad hominem. Kind of the most basic logic fallacy there is. Shades of Appeal to Authority too (i.e. "if you haven't done something, you can't make a judgment").

Anyways: Who says I wasn't already planning to? I'm just waiting on a really good idea. My major point is that this community is underproductive compared to others, and the one thing that'd make make change my mind isn't present. If you don't care about changing my mind, then arguing with me is a waste of both our times.

I'll be over in the Muffin Room. Having fun.

Your definition of fun isn't mine. That's fine. But I reserve the right to vocalize my opinions, and I don't happen to like that part of the site very much.

[Bigmouthstrikes]

If you're taking the position that anyone who doesn't want to endure the Muffin Room or have to piece together the context of various roleplaying posts doesn't deserve to look at what's being created, then I don't think we have anything in common and will have nothing to gain by arguing.

I'd never make the case that anyone doesn't deserve anything on the internet, but you have a fair point that we don't have much in common and that there's nothing to be gained by arguing.

I write good material. I've written hundreds of pages of academic work, some of which has been published, I've written some fictional work of my own that I've enjoyed (though unfortunately never completed) and here, I write creative, interesting things that people enjoy indulging in with me. What I do does exactly what I want it to do: it entertains people and entertains me. Given this, I can see that I don't need to waste my time arguing for approval from an "artist" who has no more a portfolio of his own to demonstrate than he claims my wasted talents should have created.

But, on the subject of TF media becoming an obnoxiously over sexualized porn fest, I couldn't agree more, and I applaud this community for going against the grain and offering something for everyone. So on that much, we find ourselves in happy agreement.

[Ninian]

Given this, I can see that I don't need to waste my time arguing for approval from an "artist" who has no more a portfolio of his own to demonstrate than he claims my wasted talents should have created.

Oy! Appeal to Authority, Ad Hominem, and now a personal attack! (I notice the preferred pronouns are the first things to go when someone is pissed off in a gender-bending community)

I'm... not terribly impressed, I'm sorry to say.

But, on the subject of TF media becoming an obnoxiously over sexualized porn fest, I couldn't agree more, and I applaud this community for going against the grain and offering something for everyone. So on that much, we find ourselves in happy agreement.

And by "for everyone", you basically mean the already-initiated. A casual enjoyer of our sort of TG/TF/anime media who doesn't want to get involved in a forum can basically either rot or learn to enjoy sharing bunks with those perverts. I don't quite take that as an acceptable state of things.

[Bigmouthstrikes]

Unless you consider implied pretentiousness a personal attack, I wouldn't exactly say I made one.

I'm not trying to impress you. There's a big difference between between trying to convince someone I'm special and arguing that I'm not a kid in need of an intravenous Ritalin injection. That said, it's an interesting accusation coming from someone who's linking argument definitions in his posts. I suppose that goes back to the implied pretentiousness thing. It's almost like you're doing my job for me.

[Ninian]

Unless you consider implied pretentiousness a personal attack, I wouldn't exactly say I made one.

I'm not trying to impress you. There's a big difference between between trying to convince someone I'm special and arguing that I'm not a kid in need of an intravenous Ritalin injection. That said, it's an interesting accusation coming from someone who's linking argument definitions in his posts. I suppose that goes back to the implied pretentiousness thing. It's almost like you're doing my job for me.

Throwing my identified gender at me in an attempt to provoke a reaction counts as a personal attack, and is not a substitution for an argument. I'm going to ask Xia to lock this post. The other parts were just blatant ad hominem which, while distinct from a personal attack, still completely discredit you in a formal debate setting.

EDIT: I just want to make one clarifying statement -- I think you're mistaking my vocal dislike of a certain forum and its general content as an attack on you personally. I think that's a good sign you need to step away from the forums for a while, as a suggestion.

[Bigmouthstrikes]

I wasn't really throwing gender around at all. You shouldn't read so much into it: I don't know you, I don't know what your gender is, therefor I generically referred to you as a male. It wasn't an affront of any kind.

I appreciate your suggestion, but I will likely not heed it.

[Marky]

Okay. Hm. I'm going to try and be calm and collected about all of this. What it seemed like to me in your 'vocal dislike' of the Muffinverse/Muffin Room came off fairly harsh, really. Honestly, I know I don't post like a kid in need of some Ritalin. I know many others that don't seem anywhere near like that, either. I can maybe...MAYBE count on one hand about that many people that MIGHT need such.

Also, it is not all complete random nonsense in that room. Take the few threads that I've made in there, minus my first, which was lost in a combination of the pruning and the forum going down during the pruning process, and was a labyrinth. The rest of mine have been a storyline of sorts, involving a few people so far, related to what's going on with my main character and the recent attainment of the orange avatarship, which is another thing about the Muffin Room that isn't necessarily random and tries to bring some sort of a 'divine order' for transformations. However, that latter part is another discussion entirely.

The point is, the Muffin Room isn't just a bunch of cluttered randomness, which is seems to me as that is what you think of it. Assumptions are the mother of all foul-ups, so, I could be wrong. There, however, is some randomness in there, then there's some stuff like some people running experiments and testing colors out. That doesn't seem to be so random. There' have even been threads off of stuff that have sprung from what has happened in other threads. What I am trying to get at, though, is that even though there still IS some randomness, there seems to be a healthy mix of random threads and threads, to me at least, that don't really seem all that random.

Now, as for comparing the TGTF games site and this place, besides the difference in the ratings for the two, all I ever saw out of that place was...a forum...and then their games. However, I didn't really look there long enough without just getting all 'blah'ed out by everyone using the type of avatars that they were using, completely taking away from the rest of the content, besides the games, one or two of which I actually decided to try.

This place, lately, yes, it's been more RP than anything else, but every now and then there are stories, there are captions, and there is art, some of our own, some of others, posted. Does that still make it just a forum? Maybe. I've seen people here, though, that have stayed and they don't participate in any of the RP, really.

And for first impressions...I'm gonna be honest, but you seem like someone who wants to come in and just shake things up without really, truly, taking a look at the CURRENT product, only taking things implied from when you last were around. Just what I seem to get from all of this. I could be completely wrong. I could be part wrong, part right. I could also be completely right...although that would probably be a first. Either way, take it how you will.

[Ninian]

I wasn't really throwing gender around at all. You shouldn't read so much into it: I don't know you, I don't know what your gender is, therefor I generically referenced you as a male. It wasn't an affront of any kind.

I appreciate your suggestion, but I will likely not heed it.

Alright, I misunderstood that part and thought you were attempting to get a rise out of me. "Ninian" is pretty clearly a feminine name to me, but perhaps that's not too obvious. There is a male catholic saint with that name for instance.

I guess I could have made it clearer that I was not intending to insult the actual users of the Muffin Room. If I was, it'd be too easy -- "Muffinhead". I am tempted to try and make that off-site slang (i.e. not where it'd get you banned for flaming) for people who predominantly post on the Muffin Room without much thought as to what the rest of the site is about, but that's neither here nor there. I don't particularly feel like defending my judgment nor my right to express it. I'm not the type to change my mind except on my own anyway.

And Marky, as much as I appreciate the angle you're coming from, I looked before I even posted again. I couldn't stand reading too many of the posts in there without feeling a bit sick. I really don't like that sort of silly atmosphere.

[Miku-chan]

Speaking as one of the "Silly posters", there is a reason for it. Not to knock your serious tone, but after 25 years of serious rules in my line of work, I like to play and be silly. I can and do write seriously on the side, and though I haven't written a novel, I have written enough short stories to publish a novel and have a small catalogues worth of songs and poems. Every one posts certain ways for certain reasons. And no I am not trying to get a rise out of you either, just sharing my 2 cents worth of babble here and not taking offense to honest opinions from fellow posters

[Marky]

Hm. Well, the fact something can be so silly that it makes someone sick...kinda just confuses me. The only time I can think of something silly making someone sick is if your stomach is full and you decide to watch some of the best of The Three Stooges for the first time or something, and you get sick from laughing. Although, from that, I can almost feel as if you wouldn't enjoy watching one of their best shorts, much less some of their not-so-stellar ones, since they are...in one word...silly. However, their shorts do have more of an entertainment value than reading stuff on a forum and might make it bearable, at least.

The connotation there almost seems like an oxymoron. The only thing that I can maybe see that may be silly and would make someone sick is if it was Rated R, or that person was just...perhaps too serious, possibly. Honestly, I'm just trying to understand it, but I honestly can't fathom something that'd be PG-13 (or lower), silly...and make someone sick at the very same time. ((Except for that children's TV show Boohbah, apparently...which may be that way too anyone that isn't a little kid))

A word of warning, though. Don't go into the lefty's catcher mitt. You may become terminally ill from the silliness and randomness if The Muffinverse/Muffin Room makes you a bit sick.

[Moonlit Naiad]

Well, this thread certainly took a spin off topic.

MSF is one of the very few English-language, non-adult TG/TF, community sites on the 'net. Thus, it was not unreasonable to think there might be a way to harness the creativity of its users to produce something comparable to TFGamesSite but without the focus on porn. However, looking at the way the forums have recently been restructured, with many of the old forums folded into the "Creative Corner," it seems that the focus of the site really does remain on the transitory and cliquish at the expense of enduring and accessible.

The crux of the argument that this thread turned into is really over a matter of perception. I'm sure everyone can agree that there's good stuff being generated in or because of the Muffin Room, but one of the huge problems - from my perspective - is that it is all ephemeral. New threads start all the time and the activity shifts to them, leaving what had been going on to wither on the vine and be forgotten.

There's also that matter of signal-to-noise. And while it is true that one person's signal is another person's noise, a lot of the posts that were made when I was still active on MSF were of the "*hugs*" and "*tickle-fluffs*" and "*glomps*" nature or just pure, utter randomness and non-sequiturs. In all, posts so short and devoid of meaning as to make Twitter look like a bastion of long-winded, intellectual elitism. And Twitter wasn't even around, then.

The problem is that this presents a (seemingly contradictory) unreasonably high barrier of entry for the casual viewer or infrequent visitor. It becomes difficult to separate out (or even find) the content that has meaning for more than just the few participants in those threads. If people have to work to find what may be of interest to them, more likely than not they'll just forget about it and move on.

I haven't gone back into the Muffin Room to look around since then, there's no need. I already know there's nothing in there for me, and it was the spillover of what I perceived to be Muffin Room "nonsense" into the boards as a whole that was a contributing factor in my having become inactive here. (There were other reasons of course, but they're not that relevant to the discussion at hand.)

All-in-all, it's probably better to not have a "one size fits all" approach to things. TFGamesSite tries that, sort of, and for those who look for more than just stolen porn pictures to make up their games, it's work to find the games they might be interested in. And, with MSF's focus on ephemeral "silly" roleplay in the Muffin Room, it likewise wouldn't necessarily be a good fit for games creation, either. Depending on your points of view, there's nothing necessarily wrong with either, but if neither is your particular cup of tea, it's difficult to find a place to fit in.

Probably the best bet is a separate site with a focus on non-adult TG/TF games. That way there's a minimum of friction between niches that would otherwise be forced to overlap.